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You're fair in your criticisms. I see Shadow as a sort of eulogy of the spatially oritented, fiero obsessed age of age design, even if that age isn't yet dead and buried. The real genuis of this game is how the minimalisms makes the gameplay largely (though perhaps it could have been moreso) transparent to the framing context, which if you let it soak into the experience, is quite harrowing. The notion that these beasts are innocent and your mechanical killing of them is actually an instrument of evil, all in the name of humping some dead girl, well, thats not something you get in your everyday shooter. Making characters (the collosi) into levels themselves, it seems to me, is the very limit of what spatial design can do to push into the interpersonal relations.

Good lord, what crap.

Pardon my coming into the conversation so late, but what you've essentially done is composed an arbitrary meta-language of interaction with all activities not related to survival and then, having created this invisible set of standards, started retroactively applying them to previous works and then judging flaws or diminished aspects based on their ability to fulfil your cabalistic guidelines.

I realize you guys have been up to this for some time now, but I finally sat down with FeedDemon and scrolled through your junk. Like some sort of puddle of lame, I thrashed around a bit and have come out muddy, unenlightened and dismayed.

It's good to know that gaming has degenerated to the point that academics can walk the boiler room and talk about things in a nicely sterile pseudo-vocabulary, poking and prodding things, while ignoring social, economic or motivational factors entirely. Way to go.

Is there a way you can prepend these posts with some sort of word that I can use as a flag to ignore them? Maybe something like SPECIFICATION: LEISURE SUIT LARRY, so I and others can quietly click on the "ignore" button and get on with having fun?

Jason:

I'm afraid your viewpoint comes across rather incoherently. If you have any criticisms of any of the matters discussed here, we'd be delighted to hear them - we enjoy discussions about game design theory and practice.

If you are just looking for an argument, though, you might do better to go to one of the many gaming forums; most are full of people happy to engage in verbal sparring. If you just can't stand abstract discussions about game design, I would suggest ignoring us and doing something you enjoy instead.

Whatever you decide to do, if you want to comment here we would appreciate it if you tried to be polite about it. Thank you.

Patrick:

I can't resist noting that you've chosen to interpret the relationship between Wander and Mono as being romantic or sexual in nature. Are you sure you're not projecting? :)

I think this is one of the more successful ambiguous elements in the game story. Because she could be his sister, mother, or victim... there's a lot of room for interpretation, and that sort of ambiguity is hard to achieve.

I'm certainly interested to see what Ueda-san and his team make next.

I heard it from Matt Sakey.

Tip for a much nicer play experience: increase the saturation level of your television set to make Shadow look like Ico! :) There's colours hidden underneath the dreary fog!

Michael: I'd be very interesting in hearing how you took to Ico and/or Shadow of the Colossus, if you get a spare moment. I know you had issues with the latter, but not what they were. Best wishes!

Actually, the inclusion of the sword swing is a fantastic touch and really personifies the game's entire approach. Here's a game where you have to (surprise) kill things, but it tries to introduce empathy in place of indifference when you kill one of these creatures. Including the sword swing, as impotent and unused as it is, makes the playe character more real—he's got a real sword, and he's ready and able to do some killin'.

The fact that you never use that strike to kill anything, a strike that is most commonly seen in such 3rd-person action games, subverts the convention, while making the overhand stabbing motions seem more tangible as well (since you've got a sword, not a dedicated overhand-stabbing device).

I agree that much of what makes Colossus so special lies in its execution, in details that make you think about why the designers purposefully put them there framed in an artistic context, instead of a more commercial mindset.

I actually use the sword swing to kill lizards, but this is often unsuccessful - most commonly resulting in hitting rocks instead. :)

But I fully accept your point. The game is the way it is - I'd have it no other way. Still, in attempting to write game criticism (which isn't something we see much of), I have to write critically.

Thanks for the comment!

Hi Chris,

I described my feelings about Shadow of the Colossus somewhat on our forum (http://tale-of-tales.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=374). In general, it seems to me that this is a typical "darker, more mature" game, as Auriea and I -after the PoP marketing speak- tend to call those games that had brilliant early versions and that turned into much more old school childish game-like experiences later (Ico, Black & White, Silent Hill, Prince of Persia and even The Sims are examples of this sad trend). Very often the sequels dropped all the things that were interesting in the first version and expanded on the weakest and least appreciated aspects of their design (most often combat and competition).
In general, we feel that the future of interactive media lies in a large diversity of forms of interaction. Games are only one of many possible ways in which you can be entertained by interacting with a computer. So moving away from games is considered smarter then moving back to them.

Ico still stands very lonely at the top of interactive entertainment. Which is ironic since it has several flaws that shouldn't be too hard to overcome. For a design team with the proper focus and talent, it wouldn't be so hard to make a game that is better than Ico. But it hasn't happened. The industry is simply not interested in expanding and maturing the medium.
I hope Mr. Ueda realises his mistake and/or refuses to obey his masters next time around. There's plenty of people who can make combat games. Ueda's talents lie elsewhere. I hope he gets the chance to use them again.

Thanks for this Michael; always interested to see where you stand on these issues, since you more than anyone I've met are passionate (perhaps occasionally militant...) about fusing art and games. :)

I think you're a little harsh upon Shadow, and perhaps a little too generous to Ico, although I believe I completely understand the motivation which underlies this from your perspective, seeing how it connects with your own work.

I personally do not rate Ico as highly as you. I have great respect for the game, but boy-o-boy I did not need the barriers to enjoyment it threw in my path. I so loved the first hour or so of play, but underneath the hood a decidedly ancient horror (linear puzzle chains) lurks.

I personally found the relationship between Wander and Agro to be at least as interesting as the relationship between Ico and Yorda, and in this regard (being a game and yet having an interesting relationship within it!) both games are quite unique. It helps that Agro is slightly more co-operative than Yorda, although the use of rumble in Ico to express Yorda was quite exceptional.

With regards to the systematic murder of the beasts in Shadow, at least this is a game which portrays these slayings in a tragic light. Many players, including myself, feel strangely guilty about killing them (at least at first...) - not many games can make such a claim. Is the achievenemt of making players feel *guilty* about killing not worthy of note? (Compare, for instance, God of War).

Both Ico and Shadow strike me as being descended from pre-existing patterns of play, both lovingly rendered with many nice touches. I wouldn't characterise Shadow as more of a 'step towards games' because Ico typifies a very game-like experience to me just as much as Shadow - just a different type of game (in fact, an older form of play, since pattern bosses are much younger than environmental mazes with puzzles).

Unlike you, I don't get the impression that Ueda-san was forced to make Shadow - I think he wanted to. Both Ico and Shadow strike me as reflecting the same kind of game design process; one that begins with established play, then takes a different stance upon it and refines this as best as is possible. I for one am interested to see which direction he travels next.

Thanks again, and best wishes!

It's true that the feeling of guilt when killing the creatures is rather unique. But I find the fact that the game forces you to kill them, purely sadistic (a tendency that I have noticed in other Japanese games as well -Animal Crossing included- so I think it's a cultural difference).
From the moment that I saw a picture of these creatures, long before the game came out, I wanted to start a campaign to urge players not to kill them. This choice, however, is not supported by the game. As a result, when I'm playing, I'm rooting for the Colossus. I want my avatar to die. And that's never a good sign for any game design (unless you do it on purpose as we will in our next game, 144 ;) ).

I agree that both Ico and Shadow have a very conservative game structure. But while I think of Shadow as a perfection of this structure, Ico strikes me as a game that tries to distract you from this structure all the time. Yorda's unwillingness to collaborate, the sheer beauty of the place, the joy of controlling Ico, the interaction between the characters, even the story, all work together to slow you down, to move your thoughts away from the structure underneath it.
If you "play to win", you won't enjoy Ico much. But Shadow can only be enjoyed if you "play to win". That's why I think Ico is superior. Far from perfect, but a clever compromise, in my opinion.

That being said, it still takes a gamer to enjoy Ico. I have witnessed first time players play Ico recently and they didn't share our appreciation for it so much. For them it was first and foremost a game. It probably takes familiarity with games as systems to be able to ignore them and enjoy the experience despite of its game aspect.

I think the joy that comes from a game as game is immature or at least trivial and superficial. This is the reason, in my opinion, why games cannot break through to a real mainstream market. Non-computer games have not been able to reach a penetration level on par with pop music and cinema (give or take the odd fad). So there is no reason why computer-based games would. People will never be as passionate about a trivial game as they are about a story that touches them emotionally.

I'm not saying that all games should become high art. I'm saying that as long as they don't loose or reduce their "gameness", they don't stand a chance of becoming truly popular.
The few games that did reach popularity beyond others (Myst, Sims) did so because they offered another type of pleasure than the one that comes from playing game-games.

"It probably takes familiarity with games as systems to be able to ignore them and enjoy the experience despite of its game aspect."

I think we are agreed that this is the basic problem that most games striving to be art have at the moment: one must be game literate to enjoy them. What we need are games which work "artistically" with an arbitrary audience, and this is a decidedly non-trivial problem! :)

Take care!

Well. Personally i think Shadow of the colossus was a game that i got addicted to easily. Even though its only about an amount of five hours of game play. (More of you had that much trouble with it..) But the bosses..As the name. Were just colossal. Nothings more fun then climbing up something that big to slay it. If this game was out for the best games awards, This would easily take the boss battle awards. The game is just epic. The music is wonderful and suits the mood of the battle. The only thing i did find wrong with it..For a 2005 title the charater dev. Could have been abit better..
But yeah this is intended for older gamers..I mean. Blood shooting out into the air, people being sacrificed and a demonic colossus..I found the ending was..Terrific. I can't even explain how i feel about that. It was just so unexpected. Amazing. Just Amazing..Over all i personally LOVED this game. And will continue to play it till a better one comes out.

I didn't feel 'guilty' when i killed the colossus. I loved the satisfaction got from slaying each and everyone. And some of these bastards weren't so nice..So why would i be feeling guilty?

Honestly, i enjoyed shadow of the colosuss much more than ico. The sheer feeling of: "What the HELL am i supposed to do to kill this thing." was way more satisfying than "Where do I push this box?" or "Follow me or else you're going to get your ass beat".

Shadow of the colosuss is the best combat game ever. Ueda created an experience like no other. I felt good playing the game. I felt sorry for the giants, but then i realized, ive killed thousands of creatures in games without any real purpose. In PacMan, i ran to the dherry just so i could eat the ghosts. In mario, I burst into the stage ready to kick some bombs around and to jump on some flying turtles. To not kill the colosuss is pointless. You bought the game, and in this game, you are (arguably) the enemy. Deal with it.

Fuzzle: I too enjoyed Shadow of the Colossus more than Ico; after initially loving the set-up of Ico, it gradually bored me with its "old school" puzzling. But I feel if you didn't get to experience any guilt at killing the Colossi, you perhaps missed out, as this was perhaps the most original aspect of the game.

Thanks for the comment!

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