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- "I suggest that people in a genuinely free society should never be afraid or ashamed to identify a religion."

Which is why, surely people do "hide" their religocity... Where are these genuinely free socities? We should all move there.

"I would be grateful if you refrain from using 'atheist' to mean that you do not identify a religion as this may lead to confusion."

Not half as much confusion as some of the alternatives, I fear. But we'll see.

Let's take my own stance on these areas and see what falls out:

- In my opinion, my stance most closely resembles a skeptic.

- I am not aware that my belief system comprises any particular mythology or central narrative with a truth value of "white" (to use an earlier post), as I do not believe it is realistic to hold any idea as "true" (and even that belief is subject to modification over time). More generally, then, it depends what one defines as a "myth". For example, are the stories at http://news.bbc.co.uk of which one has no personal knowledge "myths"? What of the ones in the Christian Bible? I choose to assign higher probabilities that it is worth me acting on the basis that the myths on the BBC News site are substantially accurate, than that the myths in the Christian Bible are substantially accurate. Note that I do not believe either source totally.

- Metaphysically, I have not encountered anything that requires me to posit the existence of any being such as the Judao-Christian God. "Small Gods" (in Terry Pratchett's notation) may or may not exist, but I have not knowingly observed their effects. As a skeptic, I elect parsimony: I'll believe in the gods when they throw bricks through my windows :-).

- Ethically (/politically) I emphasise the individual over the group, as groups are comprised of individuals each acting in their then-perceived best interests. My ethical position can best be summarised as "the world and the individuals within it typically do not care one whit about me, my happiness or my survival; where it is to my benefit to co-operate I should do so, otherwise I should do as I choose; and I should take the long view as to what is to my benefit." Note that this view does not suggest that any other individual should adhere to any particular system of ethics, it merely notes that their systems are expected not to be of benefit to me.

- I am not aware of having had any numinous or transcendent experiences.

Hmm. Is Skepticism a religion? Or a non-religion, given that most of the above seems to point to me not having firmly-held views on the areas that you define as being within the area of "religion"?

Neil: I hear Canada is quite nice. :D

Peter:

'Non-religious' seems pretty clear in its scope, don't you think? Or do you feel otherwise?

Thanks for this breakdown! I was really just looking for responses like 'seems okay to me', but this is quite an illuminating look at your belief system! :)

You don't really dig into your metaphysics beyond the issue of theism... is this because you don't have the language to discuss it? It seems strange to me that an atheist (who is not interested in gods) should only explore this part of their metaphysics! :) What about your views on objectivity/subjectivity, absolutes, limits of knowledge, origin beliefs (either cosmological or evolutionary), belief in induction etc?

Is skepticism a religion? Well there is surely no numinous or transcendent experience associated with it, it implies a certain subset of metaphysics, but does not imply ethics. There is a mythology, but only in the most general and muddy sense. I would say no, by this proposed definition at least. :)

"'Non-religious' seems pretty clear in its scope, don't you think? Or do you feel otherwise?"

I feel otherwise :-). You are, in this piece, attempting a definition of religion. Your readers already have an internal definition of religion, and may or may not describe themselves as religious by that term. They may or may not also describe themselves as religious by some other term that may not match their internal definition but was handed to them by (for example) their upbringing if they have not elected to re-examine their labels recently. At this point, there is the question of which of these definitions of religion to use when commenting.

I didn't comment on other areas of my (present, always subject to revision) metaphysics because they didn't appear to be relevant to the topic at hand - and any such comments would be long, and probably be more relevant on my own site. However, a few of shorts to amuse and irritate other readers:

Origin belief: This Universe is "just one of those things that happens from time to time." There is an elegant but presently untestable theory that if string/brane theory is accurate, and if there were one "ancestor" system of tightly-wound strings, then very many universes of about this energy level could occur by chance. It seems a reasonable candidate for raising the overall a-priori probability that we could ever exist.

Induction: I follow Popper - you can falsify, but not verify. Fortunately, my position as a skeptic means that I can view induction as a useful tool in the toolbox without trying to fool myself that "the sun has risen in the East for every day of my life so far, therefore it will rise in the East tomorrow" is true. It's merely sufficiently likely that I'll act on that basis, rather than desperately trying to build a starship to get off this doomed world in the event that it doesn't.

Objectivity: "I" appear to inhabit an internally consistent world, as far as I can tell. "You" appear to exist in broadly the same world; where we have differences in matters of observation of the world, we have thus far been able to resolve them by joint observation, for example of methods of contour-drawing or of the number of large pieces of pizza that you could consume as an undergraduate [aside to other readers: a truly astounding number]. Our interpretations of our observations may be different, but we can generally get sufficiently close for practical purposes. "Good enough for now" seems to me to be a reasonable aim, in general.

Peter:

I take your point about the many options for definitions of religion, which after all is the point of the piece, but I don't quite see why using 'atheist' as short hand for 'I don't identify a religion' would be any more helpful, especially given that the number of atheists who do identify a religion outnumber those that don't by quite a wide margin. :)

As a case in point, census data for the UK has 71.6% of Britain as expressing Christianity as their religion [Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/uk_rel.htm] while a BBC poll has 40% of Britain as atheists! [Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/atheism] Of course, the poll may not be representative (atheists may have been especially motivated to respond), but having met many Christian atheists (who are usually not willing to identify openly as such, perhaps for fear of verbal attack from both Christians and atheists) I still think that it is not helpful for us to use 'atheist' to mean 'I don't identify a religion', especially given the existence of a fair selection of atheist religions in the world.

I find it especially curious that this additional meaning for atheist seems to be frequently taken for granted, at least in the bowels of the internet, yet hasn't made it into any dictionary I know of yet. Now lexicographers are usually at least 10 years behind trends in language, so perhaps this is just things moving slowly in this department, but I think perhaps that it is somewhat lazy for atheists not to take the trouble to identify as 'non-religious' (or some equivalent phrase) where applicable. :D

As ever, thanks for your detailed response! Much appreciated!

My position is not well developed but it would go something like this:

I see science, religion and philosophy as created and used for the same purpose - to make sense of stimuli. Science is a more grassroots system* while philosophy and religion are more topdown systems. The difference between philosophy and religion is that the axioms in philosophy are (supposedly) open to debate while those of religion are not.

With regards to your view, "seems okay to me". I'm not sure how much ethics is tied into any particular religion seeing as that is quite contentious within each religion (sects) and can usually be transplanted out of the religion.

*What we call 'technology' (if you are dispossed to seperating it from 'science') has always been ahead of 'science'. It's only been in the last two century or so that theories could be said to have pulled ahead of the technics that usually inspired them - and even that is open to debate considering that there isn't even any consensus on theory in the premier science, physics.

p.s. Neil, Chris; everybody seems to point to Canada but if you want to experience liberal capitalism at its 'finest' you should try one of the Scandinavian countries. If you're a radical though, put that high school spanish to good use and check out Venezuela or the Zapatistas in Mexico...

Suyi:

I'm curious as to why you believe the axioms of religion are not open to debate! :) Since religions drift and shift over time, they are certainly open to change, and I believe they are equally open to debate.

Also, I suggest that religions are actually bottom up as well as top down. In fact, the bottom up effect may be more dominant. But this is a matter for discussion at another time, perhaps.

Re: Canada; here in the UK, we're reluctant to suggest that our Scandinavian neighbours might be better than our allies in the Commonwealth, but secretly we know their culture is decades ahead of our own. :D

Thanks for your comment!

Chris wrote: "A religion can be understood as a belief system comprised generally of mythology (or a central narrative), metaphysics and ethics, and often relating to numinous or transcendent experiences."

I think you are too quick at discounting the importance of religious practice and cultural "ways of life" (such as clothes) that may come along with them. I suspect that daily practice is as important in forming a "religious self-consciousnes" (or "identity") as a certain metaphysical conviction.

This may explain why people find it difficult to describe their "religion": the narrative, some of the metaphysics and most of the ethics are still there, but the practice is almost completely gone i.e. the churches are empty on sunday...

My alternative proposal: "A religion can be understood as a belief system comprised generally of mythology/central narrative (that first and foremost passes on a "story" about the two terms "time" and "human" from one generation to the next), metaphysics and ethics. A religion always specifies a form of practice or ritual that aims to reestablish an individuals place in "the world as such" (incl. her fellow human beings among other entities) on a daily basis as well as in times of existential crisis."

Chris wrote: "(...) more importantly excludes belief systems that we would not consider religions such as science (which by Popper’s milestone should not directly include metaphysics, and which does not in and of itself imply a system of ethics) and ideologies(which as political or economic conceptions may contain ethics but do not usually contain a narrative, metaphysics or mystical experiences)."

I am not convinced that science separates so easily from religion, it certainly does not from philosophy, and Kuhn, Feyerabend and many others (incl. Einstein :) have shown how close the interdepencies are between "how we live, speak, reflect" and "how we investigate what's around us" ... I still suspect that the euro-christian perspective on science may not be universalized too fast if one is also interested to move towards a dialogue with people from non-european cultures and non-monotheistic religions.

What about another definition: "Religion denotes a belief system that relies on a set of axioms passed on through certain canonical texts (that are ordered in a historical sequence indicating "development"), prescribing not only how to interpret and apply these axioms but also which practices to follow in order to change or add anything to these canonical texts."

Chris,

in your recent post on Sen, Dewey et al. you mentioned the respect for the philosphy and its teachers. This respect is fundamental to understanding the positive aspects of religion. My hypothesis is that we perceive as "positive religion" those teachings that are passed on by teachers that in our views played a positive role. In contrast a "unethical" teacher may turn any religious framework in an ideology of hate and violence.

So maybe you need to add the role of teachers to your original three components?

translucy - I note that by your second definition, Neo-Darwinism (to take one example) would count as a religion if taken with any reference on scientific method. Is this deliberate?

This has opened the field somewhat...

"A religion always specifies a form of practice or ritual that aims to reestablish an individuals place in 'the world as such'"

I feel this oversteps its mark, somewhat. This is not obviously the case for Chinese traditional religion, it is highly debatable for some of the forms of Buddhism, doesn't appear to apply to Discordianism and is questionable for atheist variants of religions (such as atheist Christianity) which adopt the ethical stance of a religion but insert a materialist system of metaphysics. For that matter, it does not describe "free range" Christian movements, such as house groups, which generally have no specific ritual element.

Rather than discounting the practical element, I am just wary of a definition that does not cover everything that people currently identify as a religion. Since this is my goal, I must remain focussed on this task for the time being.

"I am not convinced that science separates so easily from religion..."

I'm actually getting to this point. :) I mentioned at the beginning of the week the consequences of enforcing Popper's milestone; I haven't had a chance to work on this post, but it's coming.

Re: your other definition:

---
"Religion denotes a belief system that relies on a set of axioms passed on through certain canonical texts (that are ordered in a historical sequence indicating "development"), prescribing not only how to interpret and apply these axioms but also which practices to follow in order to change or add anything to these canonical texts."
---

This is wholly inconsistent with each and every primal indiginous religion, and is misleading in the case of Ch'an Buddhism. I have to reject it outright, I'm afaid.

Re: teachers

I agree with your point of discussion here (in terms of the importance of teachers in the actual practice of religion), but we surely do not need this in a definition of religion?

PS: I ordered the Sen you mentioned, but it looks like the paperback isn't published until February next year! :)

Best wishes!

"For that matter, it does not describe "free range" Christian movements, such as house groups, which generally have no specific ritual element."

My wife has been in several house churches and groups over the decades, and has yet to encounter one where prayer was not used.

Peter: this is completely fair. I cheerfully withdraw the "free range" Christian point, but I believe the main point still stands.

Peter & Chris,

as may have guessed i am simply trying to add new perspectives to this discussion, so i do accept your comments (or cautionary hints) as valid. Chris' working definition to me is acceptable as basis for further debate. I guess the separation between "science" and "religion" works just as long as we agree on it.

From personal experience, i can only emphasize the critical importance of supposedly "unquestionable" premises, of "unacknowledged" practices, and of teachers/traditions (verbal, symbolical, in writing) in everything humans do or talk about - whatever you may call it.

translucy: I appreciate you pushing at this from different directions - since the definition did not fall over, it may well be sufficient to our task. :) In the next few weeks, I hope to get to the consequences of enforcing Popper's milestone for science - which should be interesting for all concerned. :) Best wishes!

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