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» The Four Keys Revisited - Emotion and Games from Kotaku
I don't always agree with what Chris Bateman has to say over at his Only A Game, but I generally find his (occasional) lengthy commentary on video games to be quite interesting. This week, he was tackling some aspects... [Read More]

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Am I unusual? I'm a player who:

- Eschews entirely chance-based games with no element of skill, as I *hate* losing;

- Much prefers easy fun to hard fun in any game, as I *hate* losing;

- Hides (and tries to dampen) my underlying competitiveness in almost everything I do, as I *hate* losing.

I also *hate* losing work I've put into a game. Steel Battalion is a superb game, I love mechs... but I won't play it beyond the first couple of levels, because it has permanent pilot death and it gets very hard very fast.

I get very little fiero from winning a game. I try hard to avoid competitive play. I experience frustration, rather than disappointment or sadness, at losing, and tend to withdraw from the situation that caused the loss. I experience very little excitement in play - when grouped on WoW, for example, I've had comments that I sound like a test pilot on voice chat, win or lose.

I don't think I match any of these categories; am I unusual, or am I an example of yet another kind of player?

I identified, or could identify the experiences of other people I've witnessed, in almost every single line of this post. At times it was almost like you were reading my thoughts with what you said next, it rang so true. Truely excellent and fascinating stuff Chris! :D

Peter: you ask "am I unusual?" - well, yes and no. In your description I find a player whose natural play response is competitive, but who does not enjoy this natural play response! Sounds crazy, but it's not - in fact, I recognise an element of this in myself. I stopped playing LaserQuest in University because it brought out the competitive side in myself which I really didn't like. (You may remember that several of us played in tournaments for a while).

I suspect there are many people who share this pattern - we sometimes find people saying they don't play videogames because they feel too competitive; interviewing these people tends to reveal a situation similar to your own - they have a natural competitive response, but they don't like what it does to them.

(I hypothesise this occurs primarily in introverts who express Guardian as a secondary pattern - I suspect the competitive pattern may correlate with Guardian i.e. Judging in Myers-Briggs, but when other patterns are stronger this becomes an unwelcome influence.)

However, it is rare to find someone resistant to their competitive side who doesn't experience much fiero on completing games! But since you experience little excitement, that might explain why your fiero falls flat. This aspect - feeling little excitement - is unusual in my experience.

I'm curious: do you get fiero from other experiences? Or do you not have much fiero in your life?

Rik: many thanks for the kind words, Rik! Some of the ideas in this piece are still rough around the edges, but I believe I hit close to the mark all the same.

Best wishes!

[Note change in identity - I finally signed up for a TypePad account]

I'm curious: do you get fiero from other experiences? Or do you not have much fiero in your life?

Little if any - it's a response I recognise in others, but not one I appear to have myself. This may be genetic, as my father and paternal grandfather both appear to show little to no strong emotion.

Hmm. If that's the case - I don't get the payoff of fiero (see, I closed the HTML properly this time!) - that might be a good reason why I don't like hard fun. I get all the negatives from repeated failure, but little or no reward from the eventual success. I certainly recognise myself in *that* pattern!

(And, yes, I remember LQ. I still enjoy the odd game, although the Manchester site has closed down and I now wheeze my overweight way round the Trafford Centre site. It's a little funny, as most of the vict^Wother players are kids, who view me as no threat at all until they've seen me come top of the board a couple of times!)

If fiero is linked to a specific endorphin, it's plausible that there could be a genetic factor - I don't say that very often. :) People rush to genetics too rapidly for an explanation in my opinion.

The image of you slaughtering kids in the Trafford Centre LQ site brightens my day. :)

The image of you slaughtering kids in the Trafford Centre LQ site brightens my day. :)

Virtual slaughter, please. Much as physical slaughter might be desired or even warranted in some cases, I'll settle for 10 points and no warrant for my arrest.

I disagree about the games of chance not having a sense of frustration.

Even though you know you have no control over it, there's a sense that sometimes you "feel lucky".

There can be frustration that "luck" isn't going your way.

I identified more with Peter than most of the article, though I still think there is definitely something to the theory presented, if only that we need to map more preference types...

I'm somewhat different though that I can't stand a game of pure chance. I hated one of the Mario Party games my friends got hooked on because it would take hours to play and at any time a roll of the dice could change things making the input leading up to it pointless.

I used to play lots of FPSes but got really sick of the "Bang - you're dead!" mechanic, especially playing against essentially career players who refine it to a fine art and annihilate all those who don't. I still enjoy competitive games like fighting, and racing games, but mostly I like games where the activity itself is intrinsically rewarding and motivating, and ideally allows me to play at my own level (like the above two, and) - puzzle games, rhythm games, sandboxes, mahjong - I see it as much more strategy than chance, and dungeon crawlers. I lean hard away from games like tactics/stragegy games where you can put in an hour to play a game and lose in the end making it wasted effort, or a shooter where you'll end up backtracking and wandering around because the path forward is hard to find.

I think in the end it comes down to Csikszentmihalyi's concept of "flow," which seems to be the holy grail of gameplay - but of course it will be reached in different ways by different people.

Anon: "I disagree about the games of chance not having a sense of frustration. There can be frustration that 'luck' isn't going your way."

I agree that players do experience frustration in games of chance, but I hypothesise (above) that when this happens it is a factor of the player's natural competitive response. So I suppose what I am claiming here is that the less competitive players will show fewer signs of frustration in games of chance.

Aka: thanks for sharing your viewpoint here. Like Peter, you seem to show a need for a high degree of competence in what you are playing, thus avoiding games in which you feel less in control (including feeling out-of-control because of chance factors).

I certainly agree that games are powerful tools for inducing flow, but flow by itself is inadequate explanation - since what determines the player's ability to enter a state of flow depends upon a great many factors. It seems also that different players are looking for different experiences within the flow channel - the competitive fiero-seeking player is operating near the "top" of the flow channel (tipping into frustration), while other players are more comfortable at or below the midline of the flow channel. I think this also relates to this competitive theme - competitive players are playing closer to the top of the flow channel.

A game that induces flow in a certain person will be described as having "great gameplay" by that person, but it could be entirely useless at inducing flow in a different person. It is for this reason that I am focussing my research work on play needs and play styles (the differences between players) rather than focussing on flow, per se.

Csikszentmihalyi has already demonstrated that any human activity can be modelled in terms of flow; now I feel we need to expand our understanding of how games induce that state in players.

Thanks for the comments!

Absolutely fascinating stuff and I think your arguments are very strong.

Yet I wonder: Shouldn't it follow that frequent game players are less affected by doing badly than infrequent game players?

I am working on a small-scale study where I map players' rating of a game to their performance, and it basically seems to say the opposite: Doing badly is experienced more negatively by those who play video games every day, but breezing through a game without failing is experienced more negatively by those who play a few times a week.

Does that contradict your argument?

Dr. Juul: a great pleasure to have you drop by!

Your research seems to suggest that regular videogame players are more sensitive to failure, which might tally with my claims here. But then you also say that 'breezing through' is experienced more negatively by 'lighter' players (albeit players who play a few times a week, so we're still talking about regular players, just less dedicated players) - which doesn't necessarily tally.

A negative response to 'breezing through' is presumably correlated with player boredom; does your research then indicate that daily videogame players are less sensitive to boredom? Lighter players might be more sensitive to boredom because they play less and therefore expect more from their experiences - but I am only speculating.

The hypothesis I suggest above is independent of frequency of play - I think in many respects it would need a separate study to validate or otherwise.

When is your latest research published? I'd love to look over it.

Thanks for dropping by!

I agree with most of this article, but I don't think that developers can afford to be lazy when they're developing hard agon. Not every difficult task in a video game is rewarding, even for a masochist like myself, and I don't think this can be explained merely by level of difficulty- that this was merely slightly above my pain threshold.

Rather, I think this is explained by Raph Koster's a Theory of Fun for game design- the fun of hard agon primarily lies in the learning. A difficult game forces the player to become better, to learn the system, and master it. Thus, in addition to being difficult, a game needs to allow a platform for the player to master the system, and then demonstrate their mastery.

James: thanks for the comment! You are correct that developing hard agon need not be easy - in fact, to produce a top-of-the-range game in this space requires a lot of careful tuning.

However, I reject Koster's Theory of Fun on the following grounds (although I greatly enjoyed the book):

From Koster:

1. Koster's theory is that learning is fun.
2. Koster's theory of fun rejects visceral experiences as fun
3. Koster asks that people who have mastered a game stop playing it.

From a cognitive science basis:

A. all experience can be seen as learning; saying that fun is learning/learning is fun becomes a weak claim (new experiences are fun because novelty is entertaining, but that does not make new experiences the basis of fun)
B. by rejecting visceral fun, Koster rejects many forms of fun that are precisely what many people think of as fun (for instance, under Koster's system rollercoasters are not fun). This is his central mistake in my opinion: he narrows the field to exclude cases that disconfirm his hypothesis.

A & B refute (1) & (2).

From observation of the gaming audience:

C. Many players do not stop playing a game they have mastered. Often, they continue to enjoy it, nearly indefinitely (e.g. mass market Tetris players, as well as Sudoku players etc.)
D. Our first audience model (DGD1) shows that players who express the Rational temperament are more interested in understanding the gameplay than other players.
E. Our informal study of game designers shows that almost all game designers express the Rational temperament.

Since (3) opposes the observation C, I deduce from D and E that Koster is in part projecting his own Rational bias onto the audience as a whole, which also helps explain (2).

Games are excellent tools for learning, but this is not the same as equating learning and fun. The claim that learning and fun are equivalent doesn't match up to my observations, therefore I reject it.

Rather, "learning as fun" seems to correlate with the expression of the Rational temperament in game players.

Well, that was a ragged description, but I hope it is intelligible. :)

Best wishes!

I would agree in part with your refutation of Koster, but a few points:

"all experience can be seen as learning; saying that fun is learning/learning is fun becomes a weak claim" - this is true, but the claim can be strengthened when you consider the various types and structure of learning. I think what Koster was getting at was not such a bare statement as above and the way games structure the learning is very important. Most experiences don't have this carefully structured learning.
In fact, thinking about it, you should know this better than anyone, so why the cavalier dismissal?

On to B)...I think this (visceral vs cerebral) is a valid split when discussing how games give fun. After all, a visceral experience is fun because it floods the system with (short-term) drugs, and (I believe) that physiological process is much better understood than the one behind the 'games = learning = fun'. So if its more straightforward and better researched, then there's less need to write a cartoon book explaining it. It was a natural split for Koster, but its true if he claims his theory applies to ALL games then he's doing his readers a disservice.

Finally, on the subject of mastership, I don't recall what Koster said, but in general this phrase does not imply a cessation of learning. The novelty changes shape, but in a game like Tetris the change is miniscule, since right from the start you've already seen most of the games' coarse-grained variety.

I don't think I'm outright contradicting you here, but there's more to the argument than you've portrayed...

zenBen: thanks for this. I did feel I was being cavalier in presenting my case there; your commentary softens it appropriately.

However, dismissing the more visceral kinds of fun because we know an underlying biological mechanism is a short-sightedly reductionistic view of the matter. It creates the impression that game design need only focus on the elements peculiar to games - and this is foolishness in videogames, which rely for their appeal on visceral factors at least as much (if not more so) than any putative learning element of the fun. I might argue, for instance, that fiero sells more games than learning ever did. :)

For that matter: if learning is fun, then learning also produces the "short term" endorphin hit - there's no fun without emotion, and all emotions have a chemical substructure (for what little this matters). Either way, discounting visceral experiences as fun is dirty pool.

I think this issue may be in the presentation, as I'm not sure Koster makes the grand claims I infer he does, so much as he allows the reader to imply such grand claims. It is that opening I seek to close.

Thanks again!

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