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dj i/o here..

Punishers/Forgivers ... I don't like it. Since the players are the receipt of the punishment/forgiveness, not the ones dishing it out. I propose: Masochists vs. Amiables

:-D

I second dj i/o - the players are those acted upon here, and punishers/forgivers doesn't really work. Not sure I agree with the choice of terms, but for now I'll sign myself:

- Peter the Amiable

Nice new axis to distinguish. I agree that Punishers is not right (or not right-sounding at least)...

Fighters and forgivers, or
Floggers and forgivers, or
Flagellate vs forgive, or
Discipline vs Funster, or
Punitive vs acquital

Hmm, or other thesaurus-led offerings.

Another proposed distinction I've seen has been those who prefer "art games" (or "story games") versus those who prefer "skill games". While I'd say that many art games are forgiving while many skill games are challenging, this isn't always the case, and the converse isn't really true at all. What do you think? I'm guessing that your opinion would sort of depend on whether you consider interactive stories to be "games".

And of course you can't put everyone in one of these two boxes; I see it as more of a scale. Also sometimes I like forgiving games and sometimes I like punishing games. It all depends on the type of game, the game itself, how steep the learning curve is. If the objective seems obtainable to me, I tend to keep trying longer to attain it, no matter how much I am punished for small mistakes I make. But if I can't see a way to get past an obstacle, or I can't figure out how to play the game, I tend to stop playing immediately.

dj i/o: I completely agree that punishers/forgivers is grammatically incorrect, but any terms that would fly would have to be simple enough to catch on - your suggested substitutes replace the grammatical problem with a PR problem - much more troublesome! :)

I deleted another handful of suggested terms before posting because they solved the grammar problem at the cost of being lacklustre. I'd rather fudge grammar than be boring. :D

Ultimately, it is perhaps not necessary to find a grammatical form that applies to this, though - one could always say "player who enjoys punishing games" after all.

But I welcome good suggestions - while being quite sceptical that there are any! :)

Deirdra: This is presumably a split made by people who enjoy interactive fiction... It would be a terrible axis to apply to play as a whole, at least at this time, since you'd be using a distinction between 99% of players and about 1% of players (might be more like 5-10%, I suppose - haven't checked).

On the basis of what I'm currently seeing, the art games/story games have very poor popularity, except as a refreshing supplement to "skill games". Plus, "skill games" is a crude box, since there are many quite different kinds of skill being employed. (This is not to say they *couldn't* become popular, but I believe we'd have to get a long way from where we are to achieve this).

This split might make more sense if it was a set of responses covering the various different skills, versus pure story play.

But I do consider interactive fiction (== adventure games :> ) to qualify as games. But I am notorious for throwing this net as wide as is humanly possible!

Katherine: I agree you have to see this as a scale, and would further suggest that one might have to consider these terms solely at a statistical level for them to be well grounded. Mind you, most people can divide themselves between Hardcore and Casual, so perhaps with a sufficiently well defined axis people could divide themselves between liking punishing or forgiving games. I think I can also get at this data another way, but more on this later... :)

"If the objective seems obtainable to me, I tend to keep trying longer to attain it, no matter how much I am punished for small mistakes I make. But if I can't see a way to get past an obstacle, or I can't figure out how to play the game, I tend to stop playing immediately."

This is a description of play that I suspect most gamer hobbyists would recognise. I feel this represents the midpoint of the punishing-forgiving scale - you are willing to tolerate punishment (so you are far from the forgiving pole) but you also have your limits in this regard (so you are not at the punishing pole either). This position perhaps deserves its own label. :)

Thanks for the description of your play! I will be setting up a new survey to explore issues around this point somewhen in the near future, so any and all discussions of how people relate to these terms will be helpful a short way down the road.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone!

dj i/o here...

Katherine, I feel similarly about being punished... I'll try hundreds of times if the goal is clear, but if it becomes obfuscated, I find it much more frustrating and less rewarding to continue playing.

On a slightly off topic note.. I needed a place to notify you (Chris) about this article I think you will find interesting -- "How video games blind us with science"
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908

How about 'fiero-seekers' and 'experience-seekers'? Those terms also describe what they mean, at the cost of being 2 or 3 more syllables and so less marketable.

Would it be fair to say that fiero-seekers are clubs/diamonds whilst experience-seekers are hearts/spades?

I've thought for a while that Bartle's model could be used for more than it is.

Though I appreciate advantages of having many models.

P.S. I thought it may be worth sharing my backstory and thoughts on why I rated 'casual' - as I did. It became too long to seem suitable as a post here, so I posted it elsewhere.

However, to summarise,

"I want simplicity, brevity and focused intent.

Lack of difficulty or a forgiving nature aren't strictly necessary - if I'm playing with novel mechanics and realise why I failed - with success remaining a definite possibility - I'm happy to fail 20 or more times before success. Cirplosion's final challenge and Unirally's Gold-medal stunt tracks are testament to that."

No time to read all the supplemental material - I'll try and catch up next week. But the Wired piece is Clive Thompson's, so I read that on his blog (Collision Detection). ;)

Just one quick thought:
"Fiero-seekers" is no good because most people have no idea what 'fiero' means. ;)

Thanks for the comments!

For me personally, my gaming habits are more a result of time constraints than anything else. In the past I would have identified myself as a hardcore or serious gamer, but now, with two small children at home I don't have the time to get involved in a big full version game so I play a lot more casual games. I can play a round or two of a casual game while dinner's cooking or while the kids are occupied but there's no way I can get involved in a more serious game, and even when I can, often the content isn't suitable for the kids.
I think there are several major consequences of designing a game so that it is playable in small fragmented chunks of time: less immersion, lower difficulty tolerance, and (in most cases) less complexity. Many casual games have very engaging gameplay but real immersion is very difficult when play is divided up into segments lasting only a few minutes. If I'm involved in a game and have lots of time to play, I don't mind being stuck on a difficult spot and trying to work out how to succeed, but if I'm only playing for a short bit at a time I won't enjoy playing if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. Similarly, a complex game with a steep learning curve isn't going to fly with someone who's just stealing a few minutes at the computer between chores.
Perhaps I'm not the usual casual game player, really I'd rather have an Unreal Tournament all-nighter than play any casual game. Oh well. Maybe when the kids are older.

"The DS version has sold more than 9.5 million units, almost twice the audience that a punishing first person shooter can even hope to attract."

That's not really accurate. Call of Duty 4 has sold over 10 million, and Halo 3 had sold 8.5 million back in January (meaning it's likely over 10 million by now). Both of these are punishing shooters, resulting in lost progress in the case of failure.

Geoff: you are far from alone! A recent Parks report showed that there were a lot of gamers who used to enjoy typical Hardcore-style games, but no longer had the time to do so. I appreciate your description of your play here - and can completely understand why you have to play casual games, even though you would rather be playing something more substantial!

Brent: you are correct - I also excluded Goldeneye, Halo: Combat Evolved and Half-Life (8 million each) in consideration here, which was sloppy. I suppose I missed out the qualifying phrase that would restore this sentence to its intended meaning (e.g. "a *typical* FPS can even hope to attract") but in truth I should not have been making this assertion at all, and should have made the more accurate point that competition for the top spots in FPS is vicious, while competition in the forgiving marketplace is very low. Thanks for calling me on this.

And thanks also for letting me know that Call of Duty 4 cleared 10 million - this is significant, as I believe this makes it the most successful FPS game of all time.

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