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Fascinating, as ever.

Chris:

I propose that the philosophical model you presented so far would benefit vastly if one were to drop the underlying binary ontology (real - fictional) and introduced degrees of belief as well as degrees of imagination. Wouldn't such an extension enhance the explanatory power and descriptive accuracy of the examples/cases you gave so far?

To me it is quite clear that in any given "Real world" situation some amount of imagination is always there "in existence" in the back of one's mind (e.g. the ideas/expectations about the person you are about to meet for the first time) - what is part of existence and what is imagination in itself depends on the set of beliefs the observer accepts as her "mental fir.st pronciples".

In this sense the arts in their modus operandi you described quite vividly are precisely those human techniques that are used to move back and forth in a continuum between the opposing poles of "real" and "fictional". The fascinating and at the same time complicating aspect is that each individual moves and is moved (emotionally) differently - "movements" that are hard to describe and even harder to explain ;-)

Very interesting read. Recently I came across an article on gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/YungSingLim/20100512/5132/What_Is_The_Game.php) of note which brings another variable argument into the scene. In it, the author seems to suggest that perhaps the when viewing the excesses of what it is to be playing a game, there exists a deeper metaphysical connection between the actors and the props. Perhaps all our observations are limited to our knowledge of what exists, and yet there are things beyond that thinkers do not yet identify with because it has not been discovered yet, much like how people once thought the world to be flat. What do you think?

Mory: thanks for letting me know you enjoyed this piece; I do appreciate it when people take the time to do so. I tortured myself on whether or not to cut the discussion of other philosophers views on Walton's model, but decided in the end that it was, in fact, quite an interesting aspect of his philosophy to address.

translucy: "I propose that the philosophical model you presented so far would benefit vastly if one were to drop the underlying binary ontology (real - fictional)"

Please be clear - Walton is quite shy of making this specific ontological distinction, and admits quite early in the book that he will be trying to avoid making this distinction at all. He is talking about what is fictional *without* intending that it be contrasted to *what is real*. This will become quite clear when we get to the final part (Part 7), in which all the ontological elements of Walton's theory are finally addressed.

But as a consequence we may have to hold this discussion back until after the final part runs. :)

"To me it is quite clear that in any given 'Real world' situation some amount of imagination is always there 'in existence' in the back of one's mind..."

Yes, I believe imagination is involved in a lot more than fiction. But Walton's theory is expressly concerned with fiction. He hints at applications of it outside of this context, but constrains his discussions to fiction for clarity. Places where he "let his hair down" and discusses the wider ontological issues will be covered in Part 7.

"The fascinating and at the same time complicating aspect is that each individual moves and is moved (emotionally) differently - 'movements' that are hard to describe and even harder to explain ;-)"

Well while there are certainly cases - such as music and abstract art - where the individual's experience can be quite distinct and unique, I'm not so sure there isn't a common thread at work here. Certainly in the case of, say, a play or a novel, we have some expectation of how one is expected to feel at any given set of events - what the experience of the authorised game is expected to be. There may be nuances that vary this, but I think perhaps there might be more commonality than you expect. :)

(Regarding music, see the part that went up today).

Apologies for having to defer some of this discussion, but a week today and we shall be at the end! :)

alexander: thanks for your comment, and the link to the Gamasutra article.

"Perhaps all our observations are limited to our knowledge of what exists"

...David Hume certainly believed something like this...

"and yet there are things beyond that thinkers do not yet identify with because it has not been discovered yet"

...which is part of the reason Hume was in error. :) There are also cases of things we talk about that just can't be decomposed into specific existence concepts. Just what is "sake" (as in interest or benefit, not the Japanese rice wine!) to be construed as being composed of?

The bigger question for me is whether thinking in this Plato-inspired way - of things that "really exist" - isn't a confusion about how we relate to the world in practice.

I personally don't think our observations are limited to our "knowledge of what exists" so much as they are limited to our "model of the world". Now you could easily say these are the same thing, I suppose, but I think perhaps that our models of the world always contain entities which it would be a confusion to claim "existed".

Confusion between our models and "existence" is deeply human, at least in the Western cultures, and although most people would point a finger at religion in this regard I would be just as inclined to point a finger at science, history, politics... pretty much every human endeavour really! :)

As with translucy's comment, perhaps we'll pick up these themes again next week when the final part of this serial runs.

---

Thanks for the comments everyone!

I apologize for this question in advance. :D

If the characters in a story tell a fictional story to each other, then I suppose it would be fictionally true that those characters are experiencing quasi-emotions. So in identifying with them, is the viewer experiencing quasi-quasi-emotions?

Really interesting reading. I'm a bit behind in my reading due to going to a conference when this was posted, so forgive my very tardy posting.

One issue I considered is how much of our experience with fiction can be influenced by others. The movie theater example really struck me: sure, the darkened theater makes it easier to engage in your own private game, but the motive theater still has a shared component. Your girlfriend shivering next to you while watching a horror movie definitely affects you. Or, the rest of the audience laughing at a silly joke in a comedy an make a mediocre joke seem like high art when you get caught up in it. As an MMO designer, this is particularly interesting to me.

As for the example of Charles fearing the blob, I wonder if part of this might not be a more active experience on the part of the viewer in some cases. Perhaps Charles isn't afraid of the actual image projected on screen, but is afraid of the imaginating of him or his loved ones being put in the same situation (in the path of an all-consuming monster). I guess this might mean I agree with Lamarque that Charles may be afraid of the thought or the concept of the slime. This could also explain why some horror genres, such as zombies, become popular as issues crop up that are related. One person I was talking to recently said that the current revival of interest in zombies might be related to the rise of biotech and the fear of the unknown surrounding it.

At any rate, I haven't put as much rigor into these thoughts as Walton has. But, perhaps they could be interesting points for others to consider.

Off to read the rest of the series when I can. :)


Mory: "If the characters in a story tell a fictional story to each other, then I suppose it would be fictionally true that those characters are experiencing quasi-emotions. So in identifying with them, is the viewer experiencing quasi-quasi-emotions?"

What a mind-melter... :) To anyone who used the term quasi-emotions, I suppose it would be fictionally true that the characters would be experiencing quasi-emotions... But I don't think there can be quasi-quasi-emotions, or rather, I don't think there is a distinction between quasi-emotions and quasi-quasi-emotions, since the affix "quasi" in this context expressly means that the relationship between behaviour and emotion is suspended, and you can't then re-suspend that connection - it's either suspended or it isn't! :)


Brian: Tardy? You can read whenever you like, it's not like I'm taking attendence. :p Seriously, thanks for the kind words, and I'll take comments whenever they come. :)

"...the motive theater still has a shared component."

Yes, absolutely, and I believe Walton is sensitive to this facet of the experience, although I perhaps haven't mentioned it explictly in my abridgement.

The paradigm case for me is "Arachnaphobia!" As someone with no fear of spiders (they are my allies against the accursed mosquitos!) I simply could not have enjoyed this movie had I not seen it in the cinema where I got to enjoy the absurdly over-the-top quasi-fear of others in the audience! :)

Psychologists talk of "emotional contagion" in this context... which is merely a way of noting that we are naturally swept up in the feelings of others. Walton notes that some of the ways we respond to art are unsuprising precisely because we respond to other people so naturally in a similar way.

"Perhaps Charles isn't afraid of the actual image projected on screen, but is afraid of the imaginating of him or his loved ones being put in the same situation (in the path of an all-consuming monster). I guess this might mean I agree with Lamarque that Charles may be afraid of the thought or the concept of the slime."

Yes, this is Lamarque's view. I think it's a fine perspective, but I don't see it as contra Walton, because really this is just focussing on a different part of what is going on, and I don't personally see any great reason to prefer one interpretation over another. And since Walton's approach offers new perspectives on our relationship with art, I'm inclined to see Lamarque's offering as simply a different interpretation of one aspect of Walton's theory.

"This could also explain why some horror genres, such as zombies, become popular as issues crop up that are related. One person I was talking to recently said that the current revival of interest in zombies might be related to the rise of biotech and the fear of the unknown surrounding it."

I think it's definitely the case that horror movies attempt to make use of fears that are already in motion... Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Bram Stoker's Dracula were very much in this vein with respect to their Victorian audiences! And I think that the sudden popularity of "torture horror" came in the wake of the discussion of torture in the news.

Your zombie-biotech link would seem to be validated by Resident Evil, which makes the connection explictly. The days of curses being the preferred mechanic behind zombies has long since passed. It strikes me that in the 60s, Romero used radioactive contamination as his zombie-cause at the height of nuclear fear, which further lends credence to your claim.

I presume Aristotle would have claimed that this use of horror drama is cathartic i.e. helps purge us of the associated anxiety (although of course, Aristotle never watched a zombie movie!). But I think perhaps this is only part of the story, since science fiction and horror stories also serve to sharpen our awareness of the risks inherent in particular technologies. Would we be so interested in nuclear disarmament if the works of the 50s, 60s and 70s had not driven home the horror implicit in such weapons?

Thanks for the comment!

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